Talk:President of the United Federation of Planets

From FEInfobase

Contents 1 Veep and other setup 2 Some Answers 2.1 Succession 2.2 Vice President 2.3 Senate 2.4 Presiding President 2.5 Security Council 2.6 Legal Involvement 3 Senate Cont

Veep and other setup

According to this edit, Spock introduced the role of Vice President. Are we seriously saying there were no VPs before the war? What would have happened if the sitting Prez died? We'd just throw together a quadrant-sized election over the weekend to see who'd become the boss? What if the President was assassinated during a time of war? Who'd be calling the shots diplomatically and militarily? A committee? There's a reason you vote for one guy to lead the country. Even in the UK today where we don't really care about the line of succession, we've still got a position clearly defined as #2 in Deputy Prime Minister (He of the mistress, Prezza).

Also according to this edit, something something about the Senate. I thought we were doing away with it.

This page also claims that the President must oversee all sessions of the Council. These sessions being led by the Veep. So why is the President forced to sit in when a)#2's taking care of it and b)he could be planning wars for dilithium. Unless I'm mistaken, George Bush doesn't sit in on Congress for the most part, (which more and more it seems this is being based on), and Tony Blair doesn't usually sit in on Commons sessions unless it's PMQs or a hefty announcement like the Budget. It also seems to give a lot of the Speaker of the House's duties to the President, and breaks down his abilities to veto something. The Council sends him a Bill, he vetoes it, and then the Council overrides his veto.

The article says the Prez can't declare war without a unanimous agreement from the security council. Who's on that?

The article also says he can lead the proceedings in a legal setting involving politicians? What's to stop him inventing charges against political opponents, presiding over the trial and sending them to jail? This is not something that would be allowed in the original Federation Constitution and any attempt to alter the Constitution to such a degree would be jumped upon by the Press and then by the public. I mean this is Stalin-esque (or Palpatine if you prefer) stuff.

Finally, the article touches on something I've seen elsewhere and haven't been sure on. We know Spock was a Federation Ambassador and Jellico is stated as being the same before the Vice Presedency, but I've also seen other characters tagged as such. Federation Ambassadors are there to represent the Federation to non-member worlds and organisations. Other Ambassadors will be from non-member worlds or organisations representing those groups to the Federation. Chakotay is a good example; he was appointed to the Federation Council as an Ambassador. Well an ambassador for whom? The Federation doesn't need Federation Ambassadors to represent anyone to them - that's what Councillors are there for - and Fed Ambassadors should be out on other worlds.

The extra details presented in this article are an appreciated effort from my seat, but they have to make sense. - theChris 15:05, 29 April 2006 (EDT)

Some Answers

Succession

Ok first thing first – if the President resigns, is murdered, dies, (whatever) the Federation Council would elect a President Pro Tempore who stands in as the president of the UFP until a new one is elected in to office. This was how it was done before the War.

But that's not how democracy works. You elect a Representative for your area/demographic to represent you, to introduce Bills, to vote on other ones, but primarilly to work for your area. You elect your President to lead the country/union/whatever, and if something happens to them then you have your elected VP step in. If something happens to the Veep, then there's a much larger line of succession that's arranged beforehand - Secretary of State, Speaker of the House, Attorney General etc. depending on the organisation. You don't have your governing body just elect a new leader when the old one dies, because that takes the power away from the people. When a few hundred politicians get to choose the leader over the millions or even billions of voting public, there's no word for it other than corruption. -theChris 15:26, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

Vice President

Now in canon we’ve never actually seen a Vice President of the United Federation of Planets. Even after reading Articles of the Federation there is no mention of a Vice President or a running mate when Bacco runs for president which I can understand as the Federation Council is seen as the “true�? governing body of the Federation. All decisions have to be passed by the Council.

So introducing a Vice President would be a logical action to take – Federation is involved in a massive conflict, millions of new people are joining the Federation so a senate is assembled to house them all and give them a voice in the governing of the Federation – so the Vice President to a certain degree runs the Senate, while the President oversees all Federation Council sessions. It also brings in how manipulative Jellico has got because he’s “dissatisfied with the state of affairs on Earth and the massive alien presence in Sol.�? He got Spock to introduce the role to give him more political power. The whole idea is that Spock as President dealt with external matters (i.e. the Borg War) while Jellico had control of the internal matters (the senate, etc). With the Vice President also now introduced it means that if Spock went off world or was injured then Jellico (or whoever is Vice President) would take over.

I have to take issue with your first paragraph here. There's never been any mention of artificial gravity deck plating on the Ent-D but logic dictates it exists. AoF isn't canon. And who says all decisions must be passed by the council? Bacco didn't need permission to declare martial law. There are bound to be other Executive decisions - the whole point of having a President as shown is to have a leader that though bound in some ways by a Council of sorts, is not strapped to the floor by them. Do you think Bush puts Congress in session every time he authorises a black operation? Of course not because that would jepordise the operation itself and besides this, running every decision through a body set up to debate issues would run things into a standstill. - theChris 15:26, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

Senate

The Senate is being removed – Dan and I are working on it and that’s why I’ve been working on this article, touching it up so it works alongside the story of removing the Senate.

Presiding President

Why does the President oversee the all Council sessions – simple because this isn’t entirely 100% based on the House of Commons or Congress. The Council as I’ve said is the government of the Federation. The President yes is the leader, and does have final say on a lot of issues regarding the running of the Federation but any major changes or new laws, policies, etc must be ran by the Council first and agreed by them (so in some way similar to the House of Commons or Congress but not entirely). The President in some ways when overseeing Council Session can be seen as the “Speaker of the House�? – as the president decides and chooses on which councillor can make their voice be heard on the “speaker’s floor�?. The president literally leads the session.

It doesn't need to be based on one of these systems, but the fact that the two different systems allow for the leader to ignore much of what happens in the House(s) was presented to illustrate that this is a constant. There's no point having an Executive branch at all if its entire working day is going to be taken up simply presiding over various debates in the Council. The President is expected to have better things to do with their time. - theChris 15:26, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

Security Council

The Security Council would be similar to the United Nations Security Council – the founding members of the Federation would have a permanent sit on the council (Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, Tellar, Alpha Centauri) with eight other elected member states sitting in on the council. All of whom are councillors on the Federation Council.

Seriously, these seem to change every time I hear them. At our Federation page, we now only have two founding members with the loss of Vulcan. - theChris 15:26, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

Legal Involvement

The President can lead the proceedings in a legal setting – now remember this happened in Star Trek IV with Kirk and the gang all brought up on charges of stealing the NCC-1701, destroying the NCC-1701 and then saving Earth from that whale probe thingy. Those proceedings were lead by the Federation President in the Council chambers. What's to stop him inventing charges against political opponents, presiding over the trial and sending them to jail? Well the Federation Constitution and Federation law wouldn’t allow the president to invent charges against a political opponent without evidence, and a fair trial. Also if the Federation President was pressing the charges then they would sit in as the prosecute – also the president wouldn’t be the only person presiding over a proceeding. The Federation Judiciary Council is the highest legal authority in the Federation so in any proceeding the president sit in on you wouldn’t just have them, but the members of the Judiciary council as well as a number of assistant judges and legal advisors.

"Well the Federation Constitution and Federation law wouldn’t allow the president to invent charges against a political opponent without evidence, and a fair trial."

Excuse me, but you seem to have missed my point. If the President presides over a trial, they are the one who decides what constitutes a fair trial. They can break the rules all they want because they decide what the rules are. And appeals are out the window, because who's a higher authority than the President of the Federation? This is another muddling of governmental roles which are generally clearly seperated to prevent such corruption. The Executive (President) leads the group. The Legislative (Council) makes laws. The Judiciary interprets those laws. Put simply, when you merge these branches as this article says has happened in our Federation, you end up with a dictatorship. Even with the dark, dark story we've built up, this isn't Mother Russia and it isn't Star Wars III. At the moment according to this article, the President can have a law introduced, they can then decide who gets to comment on that law so no detraction can be heard on the Council floor, and then once the law is passed, the President can decide how and to whom it applies. That's Hitler! And Spock is the character for this? - theChris 15:26, 2 May 2006 (EDT)

Does that help clear up some things? I will include these in the next time I edit the article if it helps. - MJ

Senate Cont

Folks need to read other talk pages Talk:Federation_Senate, there is a bit of something already in the pipe about the senate.

~Dan 16:58, 30 April 2006 (EDT)